Last week, I wrote about Sarah Bouyain’s first fiction feature, THE PLACE IN BETWEEN (a.k.a. NOTRE ETRANGERE), before it played at the Chicago International Film Festival. It’s a warm, subtly probing movie on some large issues of immigration and cultural identity; as I wrote last week, it’s commendable for exploring these themes without resorting to familiar homilies. Amy is a young woman of about 20, born in Burkina Faso but adopted a French family when she was a baby. The film depicts her first visit to her birthplace, but intercuts the story with another narrative about Mariam, a middle-aged Burkinabe living in France. In another form cultural exchange, Mariam agrees to teach her native language to a curious white employer played by the great Nathalie Richard. These interactions between French and African culture are a lifelong subject for Bouyain, herself the daughter of a Burkinabe father and French mother.
I took the director to the Billy Goat Tavern, a few blocks (but, culturally speaking, worlds away) from the River East 21 where the festival was taking place. “It’s like a movie down here!” she said, as we walked beneath Michigan Avenue and an ambulance blared past. This set off a tangent about movies’ capacity to reflect the experience of foreigners in otherwise familiar locations; she was especially fond of Roman Polanski’s FRANTIC, which she’d only just seen recently. “It’s interesting that the movie shows Paris from such an American perspective, because Polanski knows Paris very well. But I liked that he took a perspective that wasn’t his.”
Below is a partial transcript of our conversation:
BEN SACHS: What made you decide to make a narrative feature? You’ve written novels and made a documentary before, but never a fiction film.
SARAH BOUYAIN: The story [of THE PLACE IN BETWEEN] was my first desire, before the documentary and before the short stories. I wanted to be a director first.
BS: What made you want to make films?
SB: I was very attracted by the story of my grandmother, who’s in my documentary… She was born in Burkina Faso, she was born during colonization. Her father was a French soldier [and] her mother was an African woman. [Her mother] was raped–and she was not the only one, of course. And the babies who were born after these so-called “weddings” between French soldiers and African women, they were put in an orphanage. The mothers couldn’t keep them, and the fathers didn’t want to give them their names because they were black babies. So, they were put in orphanages and raised far from their actual parents. And what struck me in that story was the fact that these people didn’t have their own story. They had to invent the past of their lives…
It was the fictional part of that reality that interested me most, and it influenced my imagination… Also, my father is black and my mother is white, so I’m a biracial woman, too. It made me think a lot about my own past.
So, I had made a documentary, but it was the fiction in it that inspired me to do it. And the novels and the short stories, I wrote them before the documentary. Because at that time [the early 2000s], I didn’t dare ask the people about their stories. I imagined their lives before I met them. And it was strange, because I had guessed so many things [correctly] without asking them… In life, sometimes you don’t have the feeling that you make choices, but that life chooses for you.
BS: One of the nice things about working in fiction is that you can reclaim those choices.
SB: Yes. Also, first you can tell the story that you want to tell… So, I wanted to tell a story with this film. I didn’t think about the cinema. It was cinema, but I didn’t think of cinema. I wanted to tell a story.
BS: It’s funny to hear that, because the movie struck me as very cinematic. The way it looks at faces, it doesn’t feel like television–or even documentary. You’re letting the images speak for themselves.
SB: I wasn’t conscious of it. Really, I wanted to tell a story first. You have to choose the place where you put your camera… That comes from you, but you’re not aware of it. I think if I have the chance to do another film, I will think more about cinema and how to say things through cinema rather than through story.
BS: Do you have ideas for what’s next?
SB: Yes. I would like to write a very simple story and work a lot with the actors. Really take all the time I need–It’s impossible, but you always want to take all the time you need–to really experiment with things.
BS: Where did you find the actors for THE PLACE IN BETWEEN? I know Nathalie Richard, but most the other women in the film I haven’t seen before.
SB: The young girl, Amy, that actress is called Dorylia Carmel, and she comes from theater. She’s a French actress. Her parents are from Congo, but at that time, she didn’t know [Congo] very well. That’s what I wanted. So, she has that look–I wanted that–but she has a way of moving and speaking that was French.
BS: She had never been to Burkina Faso before you shot this?
SB: No. She had been once to Cameroon, I think, and after we shot she went to Congo to visit the town of her parents.
BS: So there is a documentary aspect to this movie. This character is discovering Burkina Faso as the actress is.
SB: Yes. It is a documentary, you could say, because of the way that we shot it. For example, there’s a moment where she’s walking [in Burkina Faso] and she looks everywhere around her… We asked her to walk in the street and we were far away. We used a telephoto lens to follow her. The people around her didn’t see us because we were hidden somewhere. So, she was just walking and we were following her…
Also, those moments when she’s sitting on a bench and looking at the road and everything, we did that in two parts. We filmed her, but maybe two hours before, we filmed the people in the streets. We stayed for a long time so the people didn’t pay attention to us.
BS: Abbas Kiarostami has shot a lot of his outdoor scenes that way. He’ll shoot the actors in the scene at different times.
SB: I didn’t know that! (laughs)
BS: So, Assita Ouedraogo, who plays the cleaning woman: What’s her background?
SB: Maybe you’ve seen her in LA PROMESSE, by the Dardenne brothers?
BS: Yes! I didn’t realize that was her.
SB: I really like the way she [acts].
BS: The way she smiles or suppresses a smile can say so much that she doesn’t have to speak a lot to communicate. Has she been in a lot of films in France?
SB: No, unfortunately. She’s actually Burkinabe, and it’s very difficult to be an actress in Burkina Faso. The wages are very, very low. So, she was working as a teacher at first [after LA PROMESSE], and now she’s working in the administration for schools. She has her own children, too, and she has to take care of them. So, she couldn’t [act] for many years, and the young directors don’t know her. So, she did nothing after LA PROMESSE, but I really wanted her to play that part.
BS: You had her in mind for all these years?
SB: Yes. Also, when I was younger, I was working as a camera assistant on a movie she was in. I met her then, and I thought she was very nice. So, I’d had her on my mind for a long time. When I told my producer about her, she said, “Yes, we must meet her and test her to see if she can still act.” She still could act! (laughs)
BS: It’s interesting to learn that she’s working in education, because that gets back to the documentary element of the movie. For most of the time she’s on screen in your movie, she’s teaching somebody.
SB: What’s very funny about that is that she actually knows very little of that language. So, another actress in the movie who came from Mali, she had to teach Assita, and then Assita could teach Nathalie Richard [in the movie]. And my cousin coached Nathalie off-set. But [Nathalie] didn’t have to be coached a lot because she caught the language very, very fast. But sometimes, I said to Assita, “Remember when you were a teacher and you were encouraging children.” There’s that scene when Nathalie is beginning to speak in that language. She says the words, and Assita looks at her as if she were a child.
BS: I thought that moment was very cinematic. All the emotion of the scene is contained in their faces. There’s a sensitivity there that you wouldn’t see in a Hollywood movie. I imagine a Hollywood film would be sentimental about that relationship, or else try to satirize the good intentions behind it.
SB: I wanted the relationship to be as professional as possible at the beginning… I didn’t want those good intentions or things like this. Also, I’m an African woman as well as a French woman; I’m very tired of how black people are shown in [French] movies, with those good intentions. There were things I wanted to avoid. I [also] wanted to avoid scenes of travel by plane, for example. I wanted to avoid the Arrival at the Airport, all the cliches that we see about Africa [in movies]. Because Amy is not a tourist. She’s there to claim her mother. So, she can’t see the things that you see when you’re a tourist… And, yes, the relationship between Maya and Estelle is the same thing. I didn’t want to show the cliches. I’ve suffered those cliches enough. I didn’t want to put them in my film.
BS: Are there are any other films that you see as avoiding those cliches?
SB: I like the films by Claire Denis, the way she shows the black community. You see people; you don’t see that they are black. I like that… That’s the most striking example I have in mind. But I have the feeling that, sometimes, directors are afraid of showing the African community or the Chinese community [in France]. They hide themselves behind cliches.
BS: I think there’s a fear of seeming presumptuous about another culture.
SB: This is a problem in France. If you want to get money to make a movie, you don’t write a story about black people, for example. The producers and the distributors say people won’t want to see a movie about black people, because there are no stars, except maybe one or two…
BS: Alex Descas?
SB: No, not even him! He’s a star in independent movies, but you can’t get [a lot of] money with Alex Descas… As far as producers are concerned, there are no stars in the black community or the Chinese community. But there won’t be any stars if you can’t make movies about these people! I hope that things are going to change. Here [in the United States], there are communities, but in France we don’t acknowledge them.
BS: Would you be willing to make a film about white characters?
SB: I want to film the meeting of Occidental culture and African culture… Because, it’s not just culture [that gets exchanged]; it’s also history.. And I have the feeling that I’m not done with that [subject]. I have a lot of things to say. But now I’m trying to find other ways of speaking about it.
Sometimes, I ask myself if I want to tell a story that doesn’t concern black people or people with an African background. But I have the feeling that that time hasn’t come yet.
BS: So, going back to the film you want to make next…
SB: I would like to shoot another story in Burkina Faso, but without any white characters. It would be just me [and an African cast]. I’d want to use my role as a director to provoke an encounter between an African story and my point of view, which is mainly Occidental. Because, of course, I know Burkina Faso very well–I often went there with my father–but I was raised in France. So, I want to try to tell a story with no white people, so that French audiences would be more aware of me, behind the camera. This is what I want to try, for now.
THE PLACE IN BETWEEN screens again at CIFF on Wednesday at 4:30pm.